Oh mama…

Please consider what makes a better world: deeply experiencing the reality of killing each other and what it means to take a human life, or cheering and celebrating the death of a human being?

34 Replies to “Oh mama…”

  1. y’know they blame computer games for the desensitisation of taking lives.
    perhaps they should be blaming CNN ๐Ÿ™‚

    (must admit tho. didn’t even consider him being dead as a person. just considered the ramifications of him being dead and a ton of people celebrating on tv)

  2. i for one am glad he is dead. he was a truly evil man. but there is something fundamentally disturbing and wrong about seemingly ordinary people celebrating in such a way.

  3. curious, in my cirlce (via facebook and other) all of this seems like a scheme…
    But going to mark’s question, I believe that the entire aproach is sick. Even when they killed Saddam Hussein, all in the dark, no open trials, etc.
    Should we be tolerant with the intolerant? At least, we should try to do better…
    I remember when Pinochet died and a lot of peaople went out to the strets to cheer, but he never got to pay for his doing…
    It’s time for humanity to heal, but this is not the way, not in the dark, not hidden, not without trust.

  4. each life is sacred (or so we are meant to believe) but i do not believe that all deaths should be mourned.

  5. Many people were celebrating about something they didn’t understand. Just because of the misconceptions and the conditions in our minds. They were forced to believe that there’s a triumph over something that could cause more bloodshed.

    Sometimes to evolve we need to get rid of the bad ones, specially of those demiurgic servants like Bin Laden.

    For him we were nothing more than wicked and corrupted beings, he is the seed to destroy everything in our lifes, he’s the symbol of the fundamentalism.

    We need to cut the limb that is infected with the demiurge poison.

    Unfortunately there are those spawns in both sides of the story.

    V

  6. @babs

    funny we were discussing that at work today ^^
    apparently he was very ill. what better way to go out than to be a martyr (and body or no he will be..)

  7. I’m not sure he is really dead… as I’m not sure about a lot of related things ‘.’
    I’m worried about the consequences…

  8. There is no mourning the death of this person. I do feel sadness that a human being can become so twisted and evil. I already said that it’s best to be thoughtful about these things. Yes, bin Laden (let’s stop talking like he’s Voldemort “he who shall not be named” or anything) got pretty much what was coming to him, but I think that taking it to the streets and celebrating is a bit much. In our house there was a quiet relief that he is gone, but not the blatant celebration that generally goes on among the Taliban and Al-Qaida when Westerners or non-Muslims die. Like I asked before, what does that mean for us as a species? I’m saddened by the loss of a human being to his own hatred of others and his means to make his own justice. It’s so twisted.

  9. Oh yeah, to actually answer Mark’s question, I feel the former rather than the later of your question is the obvious choice. If we truly understood the depth of this decision to kill another human being, perhaps we as human beings would learn to get along better, or at least be more thoughtful of each other. Unfortunately there are those souls who are bent on creating and maintaining chaos. That is the nature of this Age. I think you know what I’m talking about.

  10. If we were to be really honest with ourselves, sometimes staying in touch with your compassion becomes nigh impossible. Especially for the victims, of course, but also for those who see those victims suffer. I can’t deny that there’s a part of me that revolts against the thought of celebrating the death of a human being, no matter how horrible their deeds. But I can not deny the part of me that does cheer at the thought that he is gone, either.
    Because this situation confused me, I asked myself – what is the second part really cheering for?
    It’s not the death of a man, it’s what his death means. That man is never going to be hurting another human being again. There will be others like him, but not him. And really, that man’s death gives some semblance of closure to those who have suffered by his hand. In a way, it’s his penance. I do not hate him, I am not the one who suffered by his hand – and even those who suffer are sometimes more likely to forgive than those who don’t. But in some situations there’s no right thing to do.
    So I’m conflicted, but not confused anymore – and I’m not going to deny either the regret or the relief I feel.

  11. Hey Mark, headed over to your twitter account but it was locked – no response from you yet. Why are you telling people about your twitter account if you don’t want people to follow?????

  12. @feathers.
    You’re right, my compassion resevior is empty when it comes to this. wish it wasn’t – but it is.

  13. @raven

    i didn’t have much either til i read what mark wrote and actually considered the guy as a human being insted of just a terrorist.

    (and don’t get me wrong please. i still think that 9/11 was the single most horrific thing i have ever witnessed – was on holiday that day and watching it live on sky news – but perhaps for different reasons as most people are horrified of it)

  14. @paula
    know what you mean. have been pulled in two directions when i actually take time out to think about it. but i think the side which thinks of him as a terrorist has to win out each time.

  15. @Feathers. no one enters on to this planet and say`s “i want to do 9/11” unless its just cause however then too? Killing on a “mass” destruction or taking a life is still wrong. Was this man “defending” his country? is he martyr now? Does this make it right?

    See i`m just asking the question.

    Do destroy lives like that its still wrong and you are right it shouldn`t have been cheered.

    When you say that you were not the one suffering by his hand… What you have to understand is this man according to the united States said he was the one that caused 9/11. Now we will never know what his motives was concerning those twin towers? He destroyed or his initiative was to “destroy” every single race that worked in those twin towers

    So what you have here is an individual thats trying to “destroy” another country`s economy and I feel that you are right. My only “compliant” is what drove him to 9/11?

    Previous administrations concerning this country has dealt with this man.. Like i said, I believe that no one is born on this planet this way. You are right it shoulnd`t be cheered.. Thanks Mark.

  16. robert: noone enters this planet with the ability to say anything at all (except for those evil lizard aliens), but that doesn’t mean people can’t unlimately be held responsible for their actions. Yes, life can turn a man into a monster, but then again, some do become monsters and some don’t. It’d be a little too convenient for someone who killed thousands and terrified millions to just hide behind his past.
    As for the ‘why’, personally, ‘why’ is secondary to me. Knowing why won’t bring those people back, nor make their deaths less terrible, but knowing why won’t give the families of those victims any closure, either. When someone from your family is killed, the last thing you want to hear is some psycho rambling on and on about how freedom can be reached for his people by targetting and terrorizing the civilian population of the enemy and how that included killing your family member.

  17. here is something to think about.

    Tony Blair (the ex prime minister of the UK).
    Some peeps say he should be tried for war crimes and that he is evil.

    Now personally I haven’t got a clue what they are on about. (i think its the WMD claim which was a lie which caused us to go to war-ish)
    But to them he is evil and the way they spoke about him, they wanted him dead.

    Evil seems to be a matter of perspective.

  18. Yes, we all know that evil is a matter of perspective.
    But we also know, that when you purposely aim your attacks at normal, unarmed people going about their everyday lifes, when your attacks are intended to terrify the civil population, when you send your own people to commit suicide in order to reach those goals, you are showing complete disregard for human life, no, more than that, those people are not even human to you. They are tools.
    If that’s the case, you are a threat to humanity and you need to be removed asap, preferrably permanently so you don’t escape and make a come back.
    And since you’ve caused so much suffering already, it’s no wonder people will be relieved when you’re gone.

    Honestly, my compassion only reaches so far. That guy has screwed over his own people and terrorized whole countries long enough.

  19. interesting questions.
    I just want to add that all that about “purposely aim your attacks at normal, unarmed people going about their everyday lifes” we have so many common examples. And not violent (at least not so evident).
    But returning to the subject, I don’t think the victims will have closure because they killed this guy. Mourning and closure comes from a very personal perspective, but even if it has something to do to why, to tyhe attack itself, sorry, but the hatered, the regret and all that motivated the suicides, that hasn’t end.
    Blaming one man for all of this is simplist and unrealistic. The issue is still there, if not Bin Laden, another.
    I don’t try to justify his actions, I’m just saying that he is not the origin of the problem, nor the problem itself.

  20. “we have so many common examples. And not violent (at least not so evident)”
    That’s the point, isn’t it? This was violent, very violent. Besides, civil casualties happen during wars, but when you try to avoid those as much as possible, it’s one story. When you actually target the civil population, that’s a whole different one.

    Btw I’m not blaming one man, but he was a leading figure and a pretty important one. He was a driving motor and while you can exchange a motor, you can’t deny how important it’s functions are.
    And yes, his death will give a sort of closure to at least some of the victims – they can find comfort in the fact that the man who lead those attacks will never lead another one. They’ll never hear the killer of their loved ones speak of terror and more killing from the TV screens.

  21. @feathers.
    Unfortunately the victomes will be hearing his name for quite a while. Even now since al-Qaeda acknowledged bin Laden was dead they are rallying more fighters – more martyrs. And next you know they will be “avenging” his death and “killing in his name” “lead hundreds more to the field of martyrdom and sacrifice” “those celebrating his death will have their blood mixed with tears”. I am not trying to argumentative – just this is not the last we have heard from him.

    As to his victims, as much as we try to put ourselves in their shoes, we cannot. Am I pretty sure they are all happy, relieved etc that he is dead, yes. but that is as far as I am willing to go as to how they might feel about his death – or how he died.

    And I agree with all the people out there, this was no war against islam. 9/11 was not in defence of his country or his religion. it was an out and out terrorist attack – the main aim was to kill as many civilians as possible. derranged he might have been but a half-wit he was not. He was one of the modern day hitlers. he was a madman and the world – however you want to view it – is better off without him. And I don’t really care if he was “born” this way or “made” this way. his actions really do not leave room for compassion.

  22. @feathers, that whole convo was not directed towards you – just the part about his victims not hearing his name anymore – I know what you are saying but unfortunately as @darkestcloud said a while ago – scared of the ramifications (sic) and what people will now do “in his name”.

  23. Once again@feathers. Yes he has screwed over his own people. The everyday people out there who just happen to follow islam – how does all of this affect them and how they are treated?

  24. @Paula: Just like feathers said “compassion reaches so far”………..Both sides of the equation.

    The previous administrations did not do ONE thing.. not on single thing to stop this man.They knew he was blowing up embassy `s? until 9/11 happened. They knew he was out here…

    now i`m not celebrating anything because the way I look at it? Bin Laden STOPPED himself. He decided that he was going to cause “mass destruction”, without giving any remote thought…..

    He stopped himself.

  25. @robert adams. interesting point. i agree someone should have stopped him first – but where do governments draw that line. sometimes I think our world leaders are too pc and too tolerant. but how far is too far going the other way?

  26. @robertadams@paula@myself. Unfortunately/fortunately ????( this is a long standing debate in Australia) – Australia, due to its isolation and relative very small population has to have allies who are bigger and stronger than us – the usa – we give them strategic satelite placement, army bases here in oz – in return for their protection (which we need) and we give support to the brits because we are still part of the commonwealth – england is still technically (although not in practical terms) our leader. to a degree are arms are tied.

  27. okies

    the dilemma i’m having is well

    if your trying to be a good person and stuff then you cannot take any delight in anyones death or suffering. how can goodness be tied with that?
    that said
    how can you be good and not celebrate when evil goes from the world (even in a tiny way)

    so

    are you sposed to look at people like bin ladan and hitler as people and ignore the actions
    BUT
    saying that shouldn’t you be working towards unconditional so you should take into account them doing the evil and still mourning them simply cuz their human.

    this is personally giving me a headache and im gonna be trying to shove it to the back of my mind for a year or so but would like opinons on that ๐Ÿ˜€

    @robert i dont think he stoped himself. thats what terrorists do. he was trying to promote terror. i think they could have wiped out half the population of the city with those planes but by going into the buildings it created more terror than loss of life could.

  28. @paula, yes couple of panadol needed here too. it is the same dilema that – if you were able to go back in time and had the chance to kill hitler when he was a child or a baby – knowing what he was going to do – would you? shit – that’s a hard one.

  29. @paula: “oh”?! you don`t think he stopped himself?

    okay? well i “think” if you you said “koolaid” and the “koolaid” man jump out of the commercial, out of the tv set and said “oh yeah”!??

    that would scare me.. yes it really would… now how do you think executive `s felt concerning those towers when they saw a passenger plane headed straight for them.

    up until that point no terrorist overseas would ever dare try and do something like that on american soil. instead of a โ€œright wingโ€ bombing we had in oklahoma city on a government building.

    bin laden stepped way over the line… there is a fine line you don`t cross it can be a positive one or a negative one.

    all of this could have been avoided if they would have went after while he was blowing up embassy`s before 9/11.. past administrations not the present.

    ok feathers and mark i get what you are totally saying with a remote doubt i agree.

  30. Mark, this is geting a little dark (informative – but dark) is there nothing else – somwewhat more positive or interesting we can concentate our brainwaves on? Not asking you for anyrhing other than a new topic to discuss and contemplate. RANDOM Rules!!!!

  31. Hmm.. This is just a question. I`m sure the question has been asked? Before Bin laden there was Iran and Iraq concerning the United States. Hmm… how did the country of iran come by missiles.. I believe the reagan administration was in office then.. and I believe hostages were freed under his administration…

    if anyone can answer my “QUESTION” without “assuming” that would be nice.

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